Episode 13: Abigail Anderson Berard | The Power of Being Vulnerable
Our guest today is Abigail Anderson Berard. Abigail serves as the Chief of Staff, Corporate Development at Celero Commerce. We chat about Abigail’s career as a D1 athlete, the power of being vulnerable in today’s business world, and her experience in M&A.
Read the full transcript below.
Episode 13: Abigail Anderson Berard | The Power of Being Vulnerable
Todd Ablowitz (0:08 – 0:57)
Welcome to It Pays to Know, the Infinicept podcast where we dive deeply into unexplored areas of payments, embedded finance, and more. My name is Todd Ablowitz. I’m the co-founder and co-CEO of Infinicept, and today my guest is Abigail Anderson Berard.
Abigail is the Chief of Staff, Corporate Development at Celero Commerce. Abigail is a massively talented and driven leader, helping to drive projects, strategic planning, and problem solving at Celero, as well as managing all M&A activities. Today we talk about how Abigail’s career as a D1 athlete set her up for professional success, the value of being vulnerable in today’s business world, and our shared experience in SkiTech.
Without further ado, I hope you enjoy our conversation. Abigail, my good friend, it’s so good to be here with you today.
Abigail Anderson Berard (0:57 – 1:02)
It is great to be with you. Thank you for having me on. I’m excited for this opportunity.
Todd Ablowitz (1:02 – 1:11)
This is awesome. Well, I want to start out. Let’s talk about you.Let’s talk about the areas of your career and your life in your early days.
Abigail Anderson Berard (1:12 – 4:23)
My favorite topic. We’ll start right off with my favorite topic. Thank you. Thanks for asking. I’ll say the Reader’s Digest version. I was born and raised in Nashville, Tennessee, and actually went to college at the University of Kansas.
Todd, sometimes when people hear that, they always follow with, well, why Kansas? Or like, well, what did you study? My answer to both of those questions is swimming.
I dedicated my life to that sport until I was about 24 or 25. After my time at KU and actually prior to joining Celero, I was the vice president of communications at a financial consulting firm. I spent about five years in that space just until I got the itch for something more, something more both in company as well as in an industry.
And that is when I was introduced to my CEO, Kevin Jones, who exposed me to the fintech space. And I was immediately hooked both to my CEO as well as the industry. And oftentimes I talk about swimming and all of the years I spent dedicating my life to that sport.
And I reference it a lot in what I do because it was a huge part of my identity for a long time in my life and if not my entire identity. While my friends were, I think, focused on what career path they were going to take and what they were going to study for and beyond, I was just thinking about my next race, my next opportunity in the water. So I say that because I never really thought much about what my career would look like, maybe what it should look like.
But I always had this very specific vision in my head. I always saw myself in the room at the table using my voice. And I kind of get chill saying that to you right now.
I never thought much about what room that would be or who would be at that table or perhaps what I would be saying in those rooms. But the visual has essentially been my guiding light for a long period of time in my life. And I get chills because it’s not lost on me that when I think about the vision that I always had, like, here I am today on this podcast with you, another CEO, and I’m using my voice and I’m talking about things that I’m passionate about.
And I’m seeing a lot of that come to life. So, yeah, I’ve been in the payment space for five years now. And like I said, a moment ago, I’m completely hooked.
I see a lot of potential in the space. And that’s what got me here to begin with. And just I’m excited for where I’ve been and where I’m going.
And, you know, I’m at a point in my life where I feel like I understand myself more. And I see a lot of doors open, I think, because of that understanding. But I digress.
I could go on forever about that.
Todd Ablowitz (4:23 – 5:21)
It’s such a great topic. It’s such a great topic. And the stage you are and what you’ve done with your career so quickly and so effectively, definitely being in the room. There’s no being in the room like the M&A being in the room. No. That is the pinnacle.
But before we go on, I want to unpack a little bit. I’ve often talked with other leaders about something that we look for in great candidates. And D1 Sports is a big one. If I remember correctly, you scored something like 77 points for your team in the Big 12 Championships. That’s not just D1 swimming. That is the elite top end of the sport.
That’s so impressive, Abigail. I have no words about that level of elite athletics. So what did that part do to prepare you for a business career?
Abigail Anderson Berard (5:22 – 6:23)
It’s a really good question. And it’s one that I don’t really think about much. I just put it into action.
So I really appreciate you asking me that. What I think that it taught me is, first, the value and commitment and dedication. When you are an elite athlete, you are, you essentially have no other option but to wake up at 5 a.m. every single day because that’s what the competition is doing. You have no other option but to put in a few extra laps in the pool, to come in on the weekends or even on your days off, which are few and far between, and just stay committed. I have this work ethic that has been ingrained in me from a very young age because of my dedication to my sport. I don’t see what I do in business any different.
I think I’m just as competitive as I am in business as I was in swimming. So I’ve seen that translate, which is good for me because I’m a very competitive person.
Todd Ablowitz (6:24 – 6:36)
I actually have even more about this because I think it’s such a fascinating area when thinking about career development. What did the experience of losing teach you for business?
Abigail Anderson Berard (6:37 – 8:23)
It taught me how competitive I actually am. The experience of losing. So I learned really, really early on that I don’t like losing, but I do think that there is something really valuable when you think about failures and how people respond to failure.
I think that’s the bigger point here. I can sit and I can sulk and I can let that consume me, or I can get up the next day and try to do better. Maybe that sounds cliche, but that’s really it, Todd.
Because there were definitely peaks and valleys in my career, but that just taught me resilience. I will tell you that coming out on the other side of a pretty big failure in the pool, whether it took a year or two years for me to essentially get over that hump, there was nothing that was more satisfying to me personally when I could actually achieve something that perhaps I failed at previously. That satisfaction is coming from within.
People can congratulate me and that obviously feels good, but I’m looking myself in the mirror and I’m proud of that person looking back at me because I was resilient. I’ve never really said that until now, but that’s really what failure taught me is dive deep within, no pun intended there, take a good look at yourself in the mirror, and there’s truly nothing more satisfying when you’re on the other side of that and you can congratulate yourself because you stayed committed and you stayed resilient.
Todd Ablowitz (8:24 – 8:50)
So, one of the things that really comes out when I listen to you speak is your vulnerability. It’s something I really admire is being vulnerable and open and transparent with your communication. How has that helped you in M&A?
What does that mean in terms of how people think you do something versus how you’re actually doing it? Let’s unpack that.
Abigail Anderson Berard (8:51 – 13:55)
Really good call out there. You know, I think, so we’re talking about M&A and talking about the power in vulnerability. So, you know, I’m the chief of staff, corporate development here at Celero.
So, people are going to assume that I acquire businesses and I oversee strategic objectives, which is all, that’s all true. But what I’m actually doing behind the scenes there is really where the magic happens. You know, I am encouraging people to tap into the art of emotional intelligence and perceptual awareness.
And I don’t think that we talk about that enough at the corporate level. I think that we’ve all been conditioned to see the word emotion or vulnerability as somewhat of a weakness, which can then be associated with some type of stigma. And I’ll go on the record just saying that I believe that to be objectively false, because the reality is, Todd, that regardless of what room that you’re in or what panel you’re speaking on, right, the one thing that we all have in common is the fact that we are all emotionally complex human beings.
You know, I spend months, sometimes even years, just fostering relationships so that I can empower others to use their voice, so that I can empower others to better understand themselves and understand one another more intentionally. And what I find in doing that is that it creates a cohesive environment. You know, we’re all rowing in the same direction because we’ve humbled ourselves such that we can better understand ourselves as well as others.
And it really opens up room for that understanding and that connection. I think there’s real value in humanizing various components of a business, but especially, and I’ve seen this firsthand, in all things M&A. My favorite part of my job is fostering those relationships and witnessing what can really be accomplished when you better understand what is truly motivating somebody else. And the only way to do that is to be vulnerable, and to be open.
And I found that you will receive that in return. It might be pockets here and there. We break down these barriers and we can humanize our experiences.
But specifically in M&A, you know, my role requires that I communicate frequently, openly, and honestly, both with internal and external stakeholders. But what I’m doing along the way is I’m working to form solid relationships with CEOs that are in the process of selling the business that they have created and that they’ve been running for several years. So that’s a super sensitive time.
It’s a super sensitive experience for them. And I think it’s really important to be mindful of that. So in M&A, there’s so many dynamics at play at various stages, but to really navigate those stages, you’ve got to form those relationships.
You’ve got to be open with people. You’ve got to be open to receive what they’re telling you. And I think that that starts with having a relationship with yourself, being humble enough to receive that information and not just receive it, but actually sit with it and try to better understand the person sitting on the other side of the table from you, because a lot can happen when you better understand that person.
And you understand that at the end of this transaction, we’re all supposed to be operating on the same team, right, and rowing in the same direction. So I do think that humanizing business and humanizing a transaction requires an element of vulnerability that is there. We just never really talk about it.
We don’t shine a spotlight on it. And I’d like to see that change. And I think that we’re getting into the period, I hope, that we can have more open, honest, intentional conversations with others, because at the end of the day, I think connections really matter, genuine connections, and people want to be seen.
They want to be heard and they want to be valued. I’m no different. You’re no different.
Whether we lead with that or we don’t, it’s in there, right? So vulnerability to me is just starting off a difficult conversation saying, hey, this is a difficult conversation with me. I’m not quite sure where to start.
And what I’ve seen is people will say, you know what, I was also a little nervous having this conversation with you, and now our barriers are down. And I know that I’m simplifying it there. This is just one example.
But that’s me, one human to another human saying, look, this is uncomfortable for me too. And I found that so many beautiful conversations will stem from that, and ultimately, really good business decisions as well.
Todd Ablowitz (13:56 – 13:58)
That can go a lot of ways you didn’t expect.
Abigail Anderson Berard (13:58 – 13:58)
A lot of ways, yeah.
Todd Ablowitz (13:59 – 14:36)
What do you think, as I was listening to you, I was thinking about something that’s a topic at Infinicept a lot, which is the role of gender and gender roles and gender norms in business. I was listening to you talking about how it’s often thought of as we, it just sounded very much like traditional male approach to things or traditional female. And I’m just interested, what do you think about that?
As a woman in business, there’s this concept of the man, what do you think about all that?
Abigail Anderson Berard (14:36 – 15:42)
Yeah. And that’s a really good question. I’ll say that when I talk about the vulnerability and let’s say emotional intelligence or anything related to vulnerability or emotion, being a weakness, I’ve never really tied that to a man or a woman.
I do think you have a very valid point there. I think that when I think about how society has conditioned us, that is deeply, deeply rooted. I think that it’s going to require both men and women to change their perspective on just that.
I think that we’re making a ton of great strides, especially in our industry, to be more open and diverse and not just our team makeup or our dynamic, but also our communication. I think that it’s going to take some time, but it starts by having conversations and addressing the uncomfortable topic, like what you’re doing right now.
Todd Ablowitz (15:43 – 17:03)
I do want to move in a little bit to the topical area of M&A. I before we quite get there, I do want to just highlight what you said. I think that the point to the idea of having a meritocracy married to a little bit of diversity or a lot of diversity is you get different perspectives.
Yes. And those perspectives, when aligned to the meritocracy, those perspectives are what really matter. I don’t think I’ve ever had someone on the podcast or in a panel who highlighted the vulnerability being the superpower that helps them get through.
It’s just like they teach in negotiation classes. It’s not who has the tougher, smarter, stronger fist. It’s who finds common ground, who finds an area where you both win.
That’s how a great negotiation works. That is it. So let’s move into your craft, M&A.
And you said something, and we talked about this afterward, you said something on the panel I’d never heard before, although it’s a topic I’ve witnessed. And that was how important integration is to M&A. Why don’t you expound on that a little bit?
Abigail Anderson Berard (17:03 – 22:24)
Yeah. So I’ll talk a little bit about what we’ve done here at Celero. And I think it’s a good anchor to the value and integration.
Because I think that my playbook, and that’s just what it is. It’s a playbook, a very intentional one. When I look at opportunities, I’m looking through a very specific lens with the end in mind.
And that end state being fully integrated, fully cohesive, one team, one dream, one brand, operating on the same platforms, you name it. Right? But if I walk it back for a second, when I’m reviewing these opportunities, I think for me to successfully act on truly accretive M&A, that means that I can’t chase the shiny object that might look good on paper.
Perhaps it helps us hit our financial goals overnight. But if it’s well outside of our thesis and would change who we are and what we do and how we do what we do at the end of that integration, oftentimes I’m going to have to pass on that opportunity. To put it simply, I’m looking for profitability.
I’m looking for strong engines that are growing. I’m looking for good operational fits that help us to expand our existing platform, our services, as well as our geographic footprint. But lastly, I think that this touches on your question.
I think the most important thing that I’m looking for is the cultural fit. Is there alignment at the top? Do we share the same vision for the future and the same vision for the go-forward structure to a certain degree?
Because I want to stress on the cultural alignment there because, you know, Todd, I can navigate just about anything with anyone so long as there is alignment. It’s damn near impossible to navigate even the smallest things if there isn’t alignment. So that cultural alignment is very important, especially in M&A and especially because of how intentional we are and the way we go about integrating these businesses.
So I’ve got to carefully consider all of this just because of how we look to integrate fully. Post-acquisition from platforms to processes to branding to reporting structures, all of it, there’s a lot of change management that we have to account for and we have to navigate throughout integration. It is really hard.
I’m not going to say that it’s not. But in order to do that successfully, you have to be aware of the changes that are coming. You’ve got to communicate them open and honestly and realize and maybe put yourself in somebody else’s shoes that’s on the other side of this, not knowing what’s going to happen, not knowing the changes and how they’re going to feel about it.
So that’s where the vulnerability piece comes in, right? But I’ve found there to be a tremendous amount of value in fully integrating systems and teams just to ensure that at the end of the integration, you have that cohesive business, you have that cohesive team all operating under the same roof, pulling from the same resources and more importantly than anything else, sharing in the same vision. You know, I’m always trying to, when I look at our integration playbook, and it could take 12 months, it could take longer than 12 months, but what I’m looking for is not only how can we ensure that new team members are buying into Celero?
I think we hear that a lot, you know, business to business. How do you get your team to buy into your operation? But what I think we also need to focus on is how are you buying into them?
How are you investing rather into the teams, whether, you know, a newly acquired team or just a new team member, because that is being felt. And there is, I think there’s no greater value than when you really are able to invest in your team and when you really are putting on your like perceptual awareness hat and understanding all of the changes this person must be experiencing. We’ll call it force changes because integrations have to happen, at least on our side of things.
Like the business has to get done. The business has to be run and we know what the vision is. And I need to make sure that you’re on the right bus, you’re in the right seat and we are heading in the right direction.
Sometimes that’s not the case and we have to cut ties. But before you get to that point, make sure that you have articulated your vision for integration, your purpose for integration to ensure that everybody is stacking hands saying, yes, we’re going in that direction. I understand the direction we’re going in.
I understand the reason for it. And I understand the value that lies on the other side of that integration, which is one big cohesive unit. That’s where I see the value in integration really being kind of going from this roll up strategy to more of a true like business building mentality.
Todd Ablowitz (22:25 – 23:14)
So the flip comment that people say is culture eat strategy for breakfast. Just it’s such a such a tangible and visceral feeling dealing with culture. And it’s huge for Solera that you’re so focused on that because that’s what kills so many M&A transactions.
Let’s talk for a couple of minutes about where things are going. You have a unique vantage point in M&A transactions having done what, 10 or 12 years ago? M&A transactions over the last few years, you know, interest rates have maybe plateaued and they’re talking about thinking that interest rates are headed down a few times this year.
What do you see happening in M&A over the next 12 to 18 months?
Abigail Anderson Berard (23:15 – 24:16)
Well, I’m going to put on my positive hat. I think, you know, when we spoke at our panel, shout out to WSAA and Pat Moore for putting that on last fall, you know, I think I was more positive than most and that hasn’t changed. You know, and I know that I stated this and I still firmly believe it that we look back over the past 12 to 24 months, you’ve probably witnessed or at least heard that there has been this lack of deal activity.
And the question is, is that going to continue? What’s the driver for the lack of deal activity? And again, what does the future hold?
So I want to first start by saying that the lack of deal activity to me over the past 12 to 24 months has not been a direct correlation of any lack of capital. So that’s one point. And that’s what I’ve heard.
Todd Ablowitz (24:16 – 24:19)
I’ve heard that across the board. There is capital. There’s dry powder.
Abigail Anderson Berard (24:19 – 27:34)
Dry power. Exactly. That was going to be the next thing I said.
So I’m glad you said that. Granted, you know, the capital might be more expensive right now. So what does that really impact?
I think that and I talked about this at our panel, but I think that that introduces the concept of risk aversion from an investment perspective. And I’ll touch on that in a second. But when I look forward at the next 12, 24 months, you know, I want to add that a lot of firms are coming out of their fundraising year.
I think a lot of firms really had to shift their focus last year and a little bit of the year before and really focus on fundraising the next fund. Right. What that means is that they’ll be looking forward this year to deploy that capital into smart and solid investments.
So I think that that’s a really positive trend that I expect to see. I expect that to be fruitful over the next 12 months. So I’m very optimistic about that.
So, again, capital is there. Dry powder is there. Risk aversion concept is there.
What that means is that I think investors are going to be when they review opportunities, they are going to perhaps be a little more conservative in their approach. I think that, you know, when they’re looking at growth trajectories or historical performance, I think that, you know, the big anticipated hockey stick growth swings that are just around the corner, just around the corner. And that might be true.
I think that right now, because of the market, that’s less attractive than steady and consistent and a proven year over year growth. When it comes to what’s really driving the valuations and what impact has the Titan credit market had, I think it’s the way that we look at deals. And I think that it all starts to Todd with what are your expectations for valuation?
Have we changed our expectations as principles of the business, operators of the business as we’re studying the markets? Are we still expecting that premium at exit? Or are we willing to kind of reset, reset our horizon, our timeline or reset our expectations at exit?
I think we even though I do think that the markets are changing and I think we’re heading in a very positive direction, I think there’s going to be more deal activity over the next 12 months. I still think that it is a good opportunity for business owners, business principles and operators of the business to sit, take inventory, reset and make sure that you are aligned on what you want your exit to look like, what your valuation expectations are. And can all of that be accommodated within the current market?
That’s only something that you could answer yourself knowing your business, right? I’m a little more optimistic about where we’re heading than where we’ve been. So I’m going to stick to that.
Todd Ablowitz (27:35 – 28:19)
You said the magic word in my mind, and that is horizon. And the reason I come back to that is, and you touched on this throughout, is when an LP puts money into a fund, whether that’s a VC fund or a PE fund or growth equity fund, they have a time horizon, they expect to get their return. And every day that that money goes undeployed makes it harder and harder to hit the IRR for that fund.
So what you’re saying is immutably true. It has to happen. The question that people ask is how long?
How much does the risk-free capital stay high, which makes it a higher bar, blah, blah, blah. But that’s what I think, that’s what I take out of what you’re saying is you’re like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
Abigail Anderson Berard (28:19 – 29:05)
Exactly right. That’s exactly right. Yeah, we know, I think, you know, we’re operating in the private space, but we know what those time frames are.
They’re known to everybody, right? And while they might shift a year or two, there’s still a ticking time bomb regardless. I think the beautiful thing is that it’s predictable, right, in that regard.
The timelines are predictable. You just have to sit there and ask yourself, if I’m a business owner, I have to sit there and say, okay, when do I want to go? And that’s a very scary, it goes back to the sensitivity of what I was talking about earlier.
That’s a very scary unknown that nobody, nobody has the answer to better than you would as the business owner.
Todd Ablowitz (29:06 – 29:07)
Oh, it’s terrifying.
Abigail Anderson Berard (29:07 – 29:08)
It’s terrifying.
Todd Ablowitz (29:08 – 29:38)
And it’s terrifying. And I mean, this is something Deana and I talk about because we’ve been at this a while and the whole idea of exit, talk about vulnerability. I mean, thinking about what that would mean, and you deal with this much more than we do, but this is, you hit on it, that it is visceral and very, very, very scary.
Okay, so you have existed in some pretty elite circles, and I’m interested for you to tell me what it’s like to be a member of Skitech.
Abigail Anderson Berard (29:39 – 29:59)
A member of SkiTech. Okay, so I’m going to geek out about this. I know you can’t see it, but my Newcomer of the Year shot ski is right back here. So just for the audience listening, it is with me at all times.
So Ski Tech, my first year was last year and I want to state that I had never skied before. So I went into this. This goes back to what I started saying, which was say yes to every opportunity.
And you invited me. You and I were having a beer at one of the conferences and you just said, oh, Abigail, you have to come. And I went and I, first off, addicted to skiing. I have now only skied twice, but I love it. I get it. But what I loved most was talk about vulnerability.
The environment was so open and relaxed and just great business conversations are happening at all times. When you’re on the ski lift, when you’re having a drink before, when you’re walking to get your boots on, business is happening. Conversations are flowing.
But there’s no agenda really outside of, hey, we’re all going to grab drinks or we’re all going to play this game. There’s no real agenda on, you know, we have to have this conversation with this person at this time. It’s a lot more relaxed. And I think because of that, it’s one of the best conferences I’ve ever been to because of that. The pressure is kind of off. You’re already there, right?
And you’re with brilliant minds. I mean, these are, we can talk about it, right? These are the greatest minds in fintech to talk about a privilege, being able to sit in and just listen and soak it up. Talk about business. Don’t talk about business. Either way, we’re all in this space having this extremely fun experience together.
I’ve been talking about it since I left, and I cannot believe that it’s just a couple of weeks away and I get to go and do this again because I’ve just been geeking out about it ever since.
Todd Ablowitz (31:52 – 32:05)
Well, I’ll tell you, you can’t see it because this is an audio podcast, but I’m grinning ear to ear because that’s my passion project. It’s year nine coming up this year. Super excited to see you on the M&A panel.
Abigail Anderson Berard (32:05 – 32:07)
I’m very excited for that.
Todd Ablowitz (32:08 – 32:28)
And keep hyping it up. We want to bring more people with more experiences and from different corners of the industry and from different corners of humanity. So really excited about that.
I think I’ll just sum up what I heard with one word. I think you’ll like it. Fearless.
Abigail Anderson Berard (32:28 – 33:02)
Fearless. Yep. I’ll sum up the point with this.
This goes back to what we talked about earlier. How do we make these changes? Right.
How do we bring more people in? It starts by those people being fearless and being open to skiing for the first time. Or maybe you’ve skied before and you were horrible at it.
That’s OK. Try it. Welcome it.
Be open to it. That’s where we start to expand our circles, right?
Todd Ablowitz (33:03 – 33:13)
Love it. Absolutely love it. Well, we got to do some more of this. We’ll figure out more venues, more places to communicate. And I really appreciate you spending the last hour with me.
Abigail Anderson Berard (33:13 – 33:18)
I appreciate it. This has been fantastic. You and I could go on for days, for days.
Todd Ablowitz (33:19 – 33:21)
Thanks. Talk to you soon.
Abigail Anderson Berard (33:21 – 33:22)
Thank you so much.
Todd Ablowitz (33:25 – 34:11)
Thank you so much to Abigail for joining us today. Such an insightful and introspective conversation with my favorite up-and-comer in payments. As always, many thanks to our awesome listeners for tuning in to the It Pays to Know podcast once again.
We hope you enjoyed it. To hear more from us, go to infinicept.com, where you’ll also be able to learn more about our PayOps platform and how we get payments going your way. We especially want to highlight our newest product, Launchpay, which helps software companies get the payback experience with all the transparency and openness of becoming a full payback without the expense and lift.
As a founding member of the Embedded Payments Bill of Rights, we’re 100% committed to doing payments right. For Infinicept, this is Todd Ablowitz. Thanks again for tuning in, and we’ll pay you another visit next time.